[32] – Special Guest: Nigel Moore, Founder of The Tech Tribe

Welcome to PSA Impact, your podcast for all things PSA, RMM, and MSP, with your hosts Rayanne Buccianico and Chris Tim. Learn how to get the most out of your PSA tool and manage your business by maximizing profitability and increasing efficiency within your MSP business. Let's listen in. So hi everyone and welcome to another episode of PSA Impact with your hosts myself Chris Tim and my co-host Rayanne Buccianico. Rayanne, how are you doing?

I'm doing great today Chris, how are you doing? Very well thank you, all good. So we have with us today somebody who's somewhat of a legend in the industry, somebody who needs no introduction but I will certainly let him introduce himself to you. So with us today we have the legendary Nigel Moore. Hey Nigel, how are you doing?

G'day, thanks for that intro. Now I've got something that I've got to live up to. I'm going to try and show up well now. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who know who you are and for the one person out there who probably doesn't know who you are, do you want to just kind of give us a little bit of a background of who you are and what you're doing and what you're all about? So I'll make it easy.

I used to own an MSP for eight or nine years. I ran an MSP before that for a couple of years for somebody else. I made every single mistake under the sun more times than one and now I run a community of MSPs all around the world where I teach and coach and mentor and train and educate them how to avoid all the stupid stuff that I did wrong for those 10, 15 years that I was in the MSP space. That's me in a nutshell. See, I love that about Aussies because, you know, you guys will simply own up to all of the mistakes you've made, you know, and, hey, don't do it my way.

Let me show you all the things I did wrong so you don't do it that way anymore. I love dealing with you Aussies down there. You guys are awesome. It's all in the name. Aussie.

Aussie. Aussie. Absolutely. Sounds like the lead singer of Black Sabbath, right? It does, yeah.

Ozzy Osbourne. Ozzy Osbourne. Us Aussies, we are a crazy bunch, unfortunately and fortunately. Absolutely, and that's why we love you guys so much. So Nigel, we were going to kind of fire off a bunch of questions at you and just talk to you about all things PSA.

I know having run an MSP business, you know, there's probably quite a few tips you can give to our listeners about PSA. So one of them I really wanted to kind of start with really is if you were to run or start an MSP business again, you know, would you go for a PSA and what PSA tool, you know, would you go for even if you were a one-man band? Well, good question and the answer depends a lot and you guys would know that there's no direct answer to this that's perfect because it depends on where I am planning to go with my new MSP that I'm building. And so if I plan on just staying as a one-human band, then I'd go with one of the smaller ones that are more suited for one-human bands. There's tools like Synchro and those kind of ones that sit in that space where they don't require a lot of effort to set up and running and they don't have a ton of features that will overwhelm you as well but they won't scale with you into becoming a bigger MSP.

If I personally was going to start an MSP myself knowing that if I was to start one, I would be wanting to start and grow a bigger one, I would be going from day one into one of the bigger tools, one of the top three or four out there and we all know the names of them. I probably don't need to mention them on here but I would be going with one of those top three or four from day one because I want to make sure that I've got the right tool to grow into as I go. And I will know that I'm not going to use any like a minor percent of the tool for the first maybe six months, year or whatever it is as I'm getting my MSP up and running but I will have all the features that are available to me as I'm starting to scale and grow and whatnot and I won't have to do what so many MSPs do and that's migrate from one tool to the other when they realise that the first one that they chose is not the one that's going to get them to where they want to go. And so it really comes back to what's your long-term plan for your MSP? Do you want to stay that small nimble MSP and have a high-paying job that's a lifestyle business and whatnot or do you want to grow a larger 20, 30, 40, 50 seat MSP?

And you've got to pick the right tool to do that and I know your book, Chris, that helps you with that, right? You've got some help in there about how to figure out those decisions and work your way through it. Personal... Let me ask a question. I just want to kind of feed off of that first question.

Which one would you purchase first? Do you think the RMM is more important to get or the PSA? Because the PSA manages the business but the RMM helps you actually remote into the machines. So which do you find to be the more important tool for a startup? Another good question.

The question... You've got to ask the question yourself though. Am I going to build my own service delivery team or am I going to outsource to one of the outsourced service delivery teams before you answer that question? And if I was to start an MSP again today, I would very heavily be investigating one of the outsourced teams out there so that I don't have to worry about the RMM side of things because let's face it, that bottom end of the marketplace like monitoring and maintenance and patch management and all that kind of stuff is all completely commoditized now and the value in it is nothing. The value is very, very, very low in the grand scheme of things in an MSP agreement.

And so I don't want to be investing all of my time and effort and energy and money and whatnot trying to build out a great offering around first level help desk support and patch management and all those kinds of things because they're commoditized and I can buy them from somebody else at a pretty high level now. And so honestly, to me, it would probably be the PSA tool that I would go first and I would very likely, I'll never say never because it always depends on the marketplace and when you start and whatnot, but I would very likely be using an outsourced help desk and leveraging whatever tool they've got in there and focusing very heavily on the PSA first and making sure that that PSA is set up to do things like not just ticketing, obviously ticketing is one of the main things, but all our recurring high value things like TBR or QBRs or our quarterly business reviews with our clients and all of those sorts of things and using it to help manage that stuff because that's where the real high value is in managed service agreements nowadays is that business consulting and trusted advisor stuff and working with your clients to help them grow their business, not in the monitoring and maintenance stuff that comes out of an RMM. And so if I went the path of building out my own service delivery team and having a help desk and a NOC and whatever internally to do stuff, I would obviously have to be bringing on an RMM, but I would very likely do both at once. And I know it's tough and I've done it twice where I've now brought on both at once and set them both up at once and it's a heck of a job. But if you're going to get an MSP up and running that's got that scalability in it, you've got to have both up and running.

So you might as well do those hard couple of months or those hard couple of just probably a month, a month or two or three to get both of those tools to a point where they're working okay. They're there helping you run and get your day-to-day stuff running. So probably if I was going to run my own service delivery team, literally just get both tools up and running and go heavy, not sleep for a month or two, get them up and running and then know that I can just start improving them both from there because they are both needed. Yeah. Go large or go home, right?

Yeah, absolutely. But that's me. And it's different for every person, right? So you've got to figure out where you're at. Absolutely.

I always say to when customers ask me or people ask me about which PSA tool should I choose or should I choose a PSA tool, it's all very much a case of what do you want to do with your business? Where do you want to take your business? Correct. And like you say, if you want to stay as a one-man band or one person band. One human band.

One human band. Exactly. Sorry, got to be politically correct. We do. So if you want to stay that and there's nothing wrong with that.

I mean, there's a lot of people have really good businesses being a lifestyle business and that's awesome. There's nothing wrong with that. But I always find a lot of people choose a PSA tool because everyone else is using one and then they end up using it for the completely wrong reasons. And I find we're very much of a me too industry. It's like everyone's using one of the big three.

So all of a sudden everyone else wants to use those as well without actually any thought into do I even need a PSA tool or with a ticketing tool or ticketing system suffice. But actually I just wanted to kind of pick on something you said around the RMM and if you were to go down that route, would you go for an RMM tool and PSA tool with the same vendor or kind of would you and again I know it's a bit of an open-ended question but would you kind of look at trying to get them from the same vendor or? I would very heavily weight my decision around whether they're coming from the same vendor or not. I would very heavily weigh in my decision-making just because you just get rid of the he said she said in there when there's integration problems and whatnot. With that said though, the most integrations out there now even between competing vendors where there's a competing PSA versus RMM and whatnot, they are pretty tight nowadays.

So I would weight it in my decision fairly heavily because it just gets rid of that he said she said but I would still be 100% open to having them from different vendors out there because you want to get the best tool for the job and because it's been a crazy consolidation phase for the last five years or so where the PSA tools are buying the RMM tools and vice versa and whatnot. You've got sometimes an awesome PSA tool has bought a pretty crappy RMM tool and if you go and say I'm going to weight my decision on that alone because I just want everything from the same vendor, you could be unfortunately opening up a can of worms for your business and a 12-month of madness trying to wrangle an RMM tool that's just not right for you and your business. So whilst I would make sure it comes into my decision making, I would also be 100% making sure I'm just getting the best tool for the job and to do that, you really need to go and do some demos of each one and spend some time with each one and do your due diligence and obviously ask some of your peers and colleagues about their input but don't use that as your sole indicator for making a decision. You've got to put in some time yourself. You've got to sit there with you and your team and look at the tools and go okay, is this going to be the one that works for us?

Does this look like it's going to fit with the style of the way that we work? Because if not and you get stuck with that one that's not, it can really bring a business down. I have seen so many businesses or so many MSPs so overwhelmed with their RMM tool of choice that nearly brings them under, nearly sends them under because they're spending so much time on that and not on their clients and not on their business. And actually that's a really good point and it's about using an RMM tool that's right for your business or right for what you need it to do. If it doesn't run the scripts or doesn't patch in the way that you want to patch it, then don't buy that PSA tool.

Even if it's with the vendor that your PSA tool is with, look for an RMM tool that integrates well and look for one that actually does what you need it to do. And usability is huge. The whole notion of finding a tool that you actually enjoy using and your techs enjoy using is a big thing. There is nothing worse than seeing an MSP and their entire team is rallying against them saying, we just hate our tools. We hate our tools and it's such a productivity killer.

And if you can find a tool that they love using day in, day out, it's going to just completely increase their morale in the business and whatnot. There is some amazing tools that have hit the marketplace, amazing RMM tools that have hit the marketplace in the last three, four, five years that are starting to take usability really seriously. And you see a lot of the RMM tools that were originally built back 15 years ago or whatnot, they were built by teams of programmers before UI and UX became highly important parts of a tool. And they still have, and I'm not going to name any names here, but I'm sure most listeners will know some of the tools I'm talking about, but you'll see that these tools are built by programmers with database minds without user experience in there. And it really shows and it really detracts from the usability of these tools and makes The MSP have this big struggle and overwhelm of we've got a crappy tool that's hard to use and ugly and we hate using and it doesn't look good, it doesn't look new, it looks like it's from the 90s and it's holding us back and it's holding our team back and we're caring more about that than we are about innovating and helping our clients and coming up with new ways to do things and whatnot.

And that's a killer in business is not being able to innovate, not being able to spend intentional time on all of that awesome high energy stuff where you're growing and building and innovating and creating new ways to do things and instead you're spending all your time figuring out how the heck to wrangle this tool that was built in the 90s that the team hates already. Yeah, so I'm just going to jump in because you've said so many things that I really want to touch on. But one of the things, and this actually just happened to me this week, that I was talking with an MSP who was just starting out, right, so they're just brand new and they're starting out and they're picking their tools and I find that sometimes this person gets paralyzed by indecision. Oh, yeah. And so they don't know if they want to go with this vendor or that vendor and which one is going to be the right one for me, well, I don't know because you don't have really a business yet.

You've got one customer and so you're trying to foretell the future, what your future MSP is going to look like and whether or not you have the right tools for that business that doesn't yet exist. And so in my mind, I think, well, if you're going to make a mistake, right, because you're going to make mistakes. Oh, yeah. Who has ever here started a business and never made a mistake? Dan, anybody, right?

But if you do, you find yourself in with this awful tool your team hates it. It doesn't do what you need it to do. You've got to change otherwise productivity is never going to get out of the basement. And so which tool would be ideal for the switch? Is it the PSA that would be easier to switch the PSA or would it be easier to switch the RMM?

And I know what my answer is, but I'm curious to see what your answer is and Chris's answer is to that. I remember hearing Karl Palachuk, a mutual friend of all of us, answer this question back in probably 2010. I remember him debating this because he was going and he wrote a good blog post on it back then. And you're right, the answer does depend. It depends on how invested you are into each of those tools because there's some MSPs out there that just use the PSA tool for ticketing and have got a very heavily invested into their RMM tool with a million different scripts in there doing a thousand automations.

And for them to make a change of the RMM tool is going to be a thousand times harder than their PSA. But on the flip side, there's a ton of MSPs out there that are so darn invested into their PSA tool and have got it running every single area of their business and their RMM tool, they're literally using it for remoting into computers. And so obviously that's going to be an easier thing. And so it really depends. I've changed both multiple times in my career because I've made mistakes on decision making and made hasty decisions and made me-too decisions or those sorts of things rather than doing the due diligence.

So I've had to go through those things. And both for us, because we invested semi-heavily into both sides, into the PSA and the RMM. And so both sides were actually hard to change. But they weren't impossible. And I remember Carl saying this, I remember him originally saying that your PSA is one of those things you want to pick and stick with forever because it's so hard to change it.

And then he eventually got to the point where he did change his. And he goes, actually, it wasn't that hard after all. Before it was that short-term pain, but the long-term gain that he got out of it was well worth it because he got out of a platform that was severely hamstringing his business and into one that he was happy to grow with. And so that kind of answers the answer in a roundabout way because there is no answer to that. It's, again, dependent on the MSP and how invested you are into each of those tools.

But I guess the takeaway for the listeners is that there is always a way out of them. Just if you are going to make a way out of them, make sure that it's not just thinking that the grass is going to be greener on the other side. And make the switch because it is severely hampering your business. And I'm sure you guys see exactly the same. MSPs go, ah, we don't like Autotask, we don't like Connectwise because it doesn't do the things we want it to do, so I'm going to swap to the other.

And then they go and swap to the other and they go, ah, we don't like this because it doesn't do the things we're going to do and now we should swap back. And they've made a decision because it wasn't based around that they've got this horrible pain in their business that their PSA tool is limiting their growth. They've just done it because they saw grass greener on the other side and they saw a shiny red object and they went, ah, let's just go and move across to that. And I see so many MSPs make that mistake and I made that mistake. I went, ah, grass is greener on the other side and I did a PSA shift and got to the other side and went, it's not greener over here, it's got pros and it's got cons and it's got all these other limits that I didn't have in my other tool.

And I literally didn't make the change because of a real business need, I made the change because of, I just wanted to have another shiny tool to play with. And I think, you know, and that comes down to fundamentally, I think people choose a PSA tool for the wrong reasons, right? Like we've talked about throughout this is that, you know, people look at a PSA tool for as a service desk, they don't look at it as a picture. So what they end up then doing is going, well, yeah, you know, ConnectWise is better because it does ticketing better and then they come to try and do something in the CRM and it doesn't quite work as well as everyone who's on all the tasks as it works or vice versa. And I see it all the time, I get clients phoning me up saying, you know, I'm switching from one tool to another and, you know, because somebody last week said this one is better, so this is the one I'm using now.

And then, you know, two weeks later, they phone you up and go, actually, can I cancel with you because I'm now moving to a different tool and it's, you know, and it's like literally, you know, people just need to make a decision on what do you want the PSA tool to do in your business because fundamentally, they're all the same. And I mentioned this in my book, you know, it's like a car, they're all exactly the same, right? They've all got four wheels, they've all got an engine, well, most of them have got an engine. Most. A few haven't these days.

But, you know, fundamentally, they're all the same, right? They all have a steering wheel, they all do the same thing, but it's, you know, the look and feel of the car is different, the way it operates is different, that kind of stuff. And it's the same with the PSA tool, right? They're all the same thing. So, you just need to find one that works for your business and what works right for your business and stick with that PSA tool.

Yeah. And know that there is no perfect PSA tool out there. Whatever tool you pick, you're going to have some challenges with it. It's going to have some wobbles and quirks that don't agree with you and you're going to have to figure out some workarounds to do some things that you want to do in it. And you might have to change your business processes to work with the way that particular tool does its things.

And that's okay. It's far better to go and do that than to play that game of eternally jumping between tools trying to find the one that solves everything because there's none. I've seen them all. I've seen a million people change tools left, right, and center. I've never seen someone say, this tool is perfect.

There is always a weird nuance or something out there. Just be okay with that. It just happens. Yeah. There's no holy grail, right?

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Go and invest the time, effort, and energy on creating an awesome client experience rather than worrying too deep about the PSA tool being perfect in there. You're going to get far more value in your business and far more ROI from your clients when you focus on them, not on the tools.

I'm just going to jump in because there was another thing that you mentioned a few minutes back. You were talking about the customer experience and making sure that you can provide the information to the customer and provide that service delivery, right? You started mentioning, and you literally just said it so quickly, probably half the people missed it, the QBRs, right? Right. Yes.

The QBRs, for anybody who's not familiar with the acronym, that's the Quarterly Business Review, right, that you do with your customers. Maybe you even have a template in your community, the tech tribe, for a QBR, but tell us what goes in it. What are the customers looking for, and what value can the MSP bring to the customer by offering the QBRs? I'll start off by saying what then customers are not interested in, and that's things like patch reports and those sort of technical reports, which most people go into their two QBRs, or I like to call them TBRs, which I'm not going to say I came up with the name. Someone else did, but TBRs, which is Technology Business Reviews, because there is not a single MSP in the world that sticks to a quarterly cadence with them, and so I think by calling them Quarterly Business Reviews, we're all setting ourselves and our clients up for failure on them.

So we call them TBRs, and you're right, inside our tech tribe, we've got an entire training and loads of ... We've got an agenda template to help you run through them with about 60 different points that you can run through and all sorts of stuff, but in a nutshell, what you want to be focusing on is the client, not about how good you were at your patch and your SLA levels and all that kind of stuff. Sure you might spend a minute or two on those sorts of things, but lots of MSPs, me included for many, many, many years, used to go out and do my TBRs or QBRs, what I used to call them back then, printing out the reports from my RMM tool and printing out the reports from my PSA system and taking them along and leading my clients through those reports, and their eyes would glaze over and they'd fall asleep on their desk, because they don't care about that stuff. They care about what you can do for their business, and so for me, if I don't have ... Obviously I've got the agendas and stuff inside our tech drive that really help flow how those meetings go, but even if I didn't have an agenda for these things, I would sit down and I would simply ask business level questions to the client while I'm sitting there.

What challenges have you guys got across your business at the moment that you're facing? Maybe there's a way we can solve them with technology. What are your plans for the next year? What are your ... Is there new departments you're looking to launch?

Is there new products you're looking to launch? Is there new initiatives that you're trying to plan internally? Because our whole goal as your partner is to figure out how we can align technology to all of those things, and that's where you get the real benefit, or the clients really get the real benefit out of these TBRs, is that you're there as not someone to show them how good you did last month on your SLAs or how good the patches are on their systems. It's to say, hey, we're here for you to help you and stand beside you as you go and grow your business, and we're going to be the person that's your sounding board for technology. They might say, hey, well, I'm thinking of launching this new product, or my accounting team is just not working really efficiently, or I feel like we're doing all this crazy work over here.

You can then start to dive into the problem from a business angle and say, okay, well, let's figure out how we can perhaps use the technology that you've probably already got available to you to help make that department better or to help launch that product a little bit better or to help build that product out and whatnot. That's really where the value in TBRs is, is those business-level conversations, not the technical-level conversations. I get it from our MSPs' angle because most of us, I'm talking from my experience here, I started my MSP because I loved technology and I loved helping people, and I didn't understand business very well back then. I struggled for a long time to have those business conversations with clients, and that showed in these TBRs. Clients just didn't value them.

They'd always put them off, and they'd go, oh, I don't really want to go and sit down and have Nigel talk to me about all this crazy crap that I don't understand, and they'd put them off. It took me a while to realize that and realize that the value that I'm bringing in this quarterly business process or this regular business review, this regular planning session, this regular VCIO time, if you want to call it that, is that business-level stuff. It's really helping them how to do that. Some MSPs look at that whole thing as a very daunting and scary realm to go into initially, but my encouragement to them is it's actually not. Once you start getting in there and you just sit with your clients and you start to build some skills around asking good questions around where their struggles are and where their pain points are and you arm yourself with a good agenda template, which is a shameless plug for coming and joining our community because there is a great agenda template in there, you will be skilled to go.

It won't take you very long before you completely shift those conversations over to just predominantly 95% business-level conversations. Your clients will be itching at the bit to jump on and have those conversations because every time they do, you'll be helping them come up with new ways to run their business and new ways to do things in their business and better ways to use their technology and ways to solve all their pressing pains and ways to help them leverage whatever they've got there. To me, it's that. It's not about technical stuff. It's really about that business-level stuff and those business-level conversations and going in and being the real partner, the technology partner to a business to help them grow.

Yeah. Actually, it's quite funny when you were talking, a funny story when I had my MSP business, as you say, about people falling asleep at their desk when you presented them with that. I actually had a client who—most of my clients were exactly the same, they'd fall asleep, so I decided to stop doing these things and I actually had a client email me saying, where's my report? I need to know how— There's always a minor percent. Exactly.

There's always the one guy, but then again, he was the same kind of guy that would literally read your contract and underline things he wasn't happy with. But it was just funny when you were saying that because I was like, yep, I know the one guy. I had the one guy too and over time, I was able to switch that one guy from caring about technical stuff to caring about business-level stuff. That's a job that you can take on or a role that you can take on as the MSP or as a trusted advisor or whatever you want to call yourself in that our job essentially becomes helping our clients learn how to think. That client was at a—my client and your client as well, Chris, they were at a state where they were thinking about that kind of stuff and thinking that that's where the real ROI is in their business.

I would guess that that guy wasn't growing a ridiculously large business because he was focusing on the wrong things and my client was the exact same. Until I started getting the confidence to be able to encourage them to think about different things and to think about the other types of problems and challenges and whatever in their business. Then, they started to go, yeah, like now I kind of—first off, there was some kickback and some like, no, I just care about the technical stuff because that was their world of comfort. But then when I started to lead them into the world of business stuff and show them different things, I then realized that they can have conversation to that level as well and that's where they should be focusing their time and energy and effort and not on those other things. I think as we grow as MSPs and as we grow as people that are confident in having business level conversations with our clients, our job really does become teaching and mentoring and coaching our clients how to think about this stuff and how to think about business, not just from a technology perspective but from things like risk and ROI and all of that kind of stuff which ties into the conversation.

Absolutely. Okay, so last question. Chris, do you want to give it to him or shall I? This one sounds scary. You haven't spoken much and it's been kind of the Nigel and Chris show, but you go for it, Rayanne.

That's right. I can be the interviewer this time around. I don't mind. All right. So, Nigel, future of the industry, this is prediction time.

In a post-pandemic world, assuming that we will someday become a post-pandemic world, what will the MSP look like? Where should today's MSPs focus their energy to thrive in the years ahead? I think I just answered it in the last question, right? It's focusing on the business level stuff. If you look at a holistic view of our industry or any industry as a whole, an industry is always going through levels and layers of maturity.

If you look at the MSP space 15, 20 years ago, we were at the maturity level of break, very little proactive, very, very little business level conversations and some horrible technology to back it all up. And the industry has matured today to having amazing technology to be able to offer people out there, great offerings like managed service agreements and whatnot that really set the value high. And so we've matured to the point where we are now. And the way I see it is that we're going to continue maturing so that stuff at the bottom end like that remote monitoring and maintenance and patching and all of that is kind of low layered tasks. They just become more and more and more commoditized out there and less and less and less value.

And so any MSPs out there now, to me, the focus really needs to be on how can we grow and scale our team of people to be able to have those business level conversations with our clients. And that's hard. It's a tough challenge. But it was also a tough challenge to transition from break, fix to manage services, but the industry did it. Now the challenge is how do we transition from caring 60, 70, 80% about tech to caring 60, 70, 80% about business and 20, 30% about tech and just using tech as the backup in there.

And so I think if I had an MSP today, I would be very heavily trying to figure out whether I even need to care about running my own service delivery team, like level one, level two service delivery team, or whether I outsource that so that I can focus so much time and effort on building a team of people that can go out and run TBRs all the time and have a big team of people running TBRs or QBRs and have great account management and have awesome client onboarding and have an amazing project delivery team that's not just about delivering technical projects but really going in and understanding clients' deep pain points in there and delivering projects for it, value-based pricing projects against those things. And to me, that's where the industry for the next couple of years has got the most opportunity as well, is going out and figuring out how do we package all of this business-level conversation stuff into our managed service agreements? How do we put it out there and how do we price and package it and build it and what conversations should we have and what questions should we ask and what type of projects should we build and how do we price and package those projects and scope them up and whatnot? And I think that's where you focus your effort and energy on that and how to really be seen as a business advisory that just deals with tech to your clients rather than just tech support that just fixes computers. And that's where the MSPs that are having great success out there now, that's where they're focusing on is that stuff.

They know that all the other stuff has got to happen and they're creating an amazing customer experience out there. So that's to me one of the biggest areas is that whole business conversation. The other one is differentiation and differentiation by things like your marketing, the way you do your marketing, differentiation by making sure that you have world-class, amazing new client onboarding experiences so that when you do bring on a new client, they are completely wowed and you blow their socks off. Because the industry, I've noticed in the past since during this pandemic that there's a massive influx of people coming into it, newcomers, one human bands, two human bands that are coming into it because they're fed up with their job now, they're working from home, they're going, all right, time to take things into my own hands. I'm coming into a, I'm starting an MSP, I'm starting an IT company and we are getting massive influx of those people that I'm seeing.

And so competition is becoming more and more and more. And so you need to, the opportunity for MSPs there to go out and be in a position where they're able to grow and get new clients easily and whatnot is to go and focus time, effort and energy on being different, creating your own unique personality for your business and making it stand out in a crowd and making your current clients love you so darned much that they can't help but go and refer you to their friends out there. And that takes time. It takes, we talk about going and building a service delivery team to look after patching and level one help desk support and whatnot, which takes time, effort and energy. It takes the same amount of time, effort and energy to go and create those customer experiences out there.

And it's not something that, like every MSP has got, customers have a customer experience when they work with you. 90% of them, it's not an intentional experience that the MSP has created, it's just the way that they work. And the MSPs that I see that invest loads of time, effort and energy on creating a ridiculously awesome intentional experience out of it are the ones that are winning. They're the ones that are getting referrals that they can't keep up with out there. And so I see that as a huge opportunity to go out and just build something that's absolutely amazing, build an awesome level of service delivery and onboarding and TBRs and QBRs and whatnot out there that your clients love so that you're building this huge degree or this moat around your business that you're not going to lose customers to competitors because they love working with you so darn much.

Wow. What an answer, Rayanne. That's it in a nutshell. I know, that was amazing. I had to rant.

And of course, I could come up with like a million follow-up questions to all those things, but unfortunately, we have to end this at least at some point during the day. So once again, we are multi-continental, right? So we've got Chris in the UK, we've got Nigel in Australia, and I'm in the United States. And that's always a challenge, getting our time zones all coordinated, but it was a lot of fun. And thank you so much for giving us your time today.

Thank you for having me on. Absolutely. Nigel, if anyone wants to kind of reach out to you or find out a little bit more about the tech tribe, how would they go about doing that? Head to the thetechtribe.com. Make sure you put a the in front of it.

So thetechtribe.com, we'll find you there. Okay, so we'll put that in the show notes, Rayanne, just to make sure that we get that into people's hands. And yeah, and Nigel, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. You're a busy guy.

So, you know, really appreciate having you on our podcast. Yeah. And really, all that's left for me to say, Rayanne, is your PSA is the key to your MSP success. So go out and make an impact on your world today. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you for joining us today on PSA Impact. We hope you've learned something and that you'll join us next time when we answer new questions posed by our listeners. Bye.